Senator Simon Birmingham – Estimates questions regarding the Government’s response to Gaza, particularly limits to Israeli defence activities

photo of Senator Simon Birmingham
February 15, 2024

Obviously, there are many issues that we will wish to traverse today across global affairs, including particular issues in the Middle East, and my colleagues will assist in pursuing and delving into some of those. You concluded your opening statement with the words, as a message to Israel: ‘Listen to the world. Do not go down this path.’ What are the limits that you are urging and seeking from Israeli defence activities in Gaza when you make that statement?

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Minister, Secretary and officials, thank you all for being here today. Not that I have a copy of it yet, but I’ll start, Minister, with your opening statement. Obviously, there are many issues that we will wish to traverse today across global affairs, including particular issues in the Middle East, and my colleagues will assist in pursuing and delving into some of those. You concluded your opening statement with the words, as a message to Israel: ‘Listen to the world. Do not go down this path.’ What are the limits that you are urging and seeking from Israeli defence activities in Gaza when you make that statement?

Senator Wong: Australia, I think, is reflecting the concern of many in the international community. I might traverse some of what has been said, which gives you a backdrop to my statement. National Security Council spokesperson Kirby—this is the US, obviously—said:

… military operations right now would be a disaster for those people, and it’s not something we would support.

President Biden said on 11 February:

… a military operation in Rafah should not proceed without a credible and executable plan for ensuring the safety of and support for the more than one million people sheltering there.

Foreign Minister Joly of Canada said:

We are deeply concerned by reports of an Israeli military operation in Rafah. It would have devastating impact, putting the lives of Palestinians and foreign nationals, including Canadians, seeking refuge in grave danger and making the vital delivery of humanitarian aid dangerous.

Foreign Secretary Cameron, on 11 February, said:

Deeply concerned about the prospect of a military offensive in Rafah—over half of Gaza’s population are sheltering in the area.

Foreign Minister Baerbock of Germany said:

An offensive by the Israeli Army on Rafah is a humanitarian catastrophe …The people in Gaza cannot disappear into thin air.

The Netherlands foreign minister, Bruins Slot, said:

The situation in Rafah is very worrying. Civilians in Gaza have fled south. Hard to see how large-scale military operations in such a densely populated area would not lead to many civilian casualties and a bigger humanitarian catastrophe. This is unjustifiable.

I think Australia’s statement is consistent with those.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: I appreciate those international comparisons but, in terms of the limits that you are seeking, is this a call for there to be no military activities within Rafah or, as President Biden put it in the description that you gave, without a credible plan in terms of how those matters are addressed? What are the caveats or expectations that you are applying?

Senator Wong: I would make two points. The first is that I don’t believe the international community has yet seen a credible and executable plan for ensuring the safety of and support for the million people sheltering in Rafah. The second point I would make is that the position I have outlined is consistent with the position I articulated in my very first response. It is a position consistent with the principles of international law and international humanitarian law.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: The rescue of two hostages by Israeli defence forces that occurred in recent days was within the Rafah region in southern Gaza, was it not?

Mr Maclachlan: That is correct.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: How does your statement sit or how do you wish to have it viewed in relation to operations or activities to secure the release of hostages who are still held by Hamas?

Senator Wong: We have been calling for the release of hostages since the commencement of this conflict. I refer you to my opening statement, which sets out Australia’s position.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Certainly, Minister. The question that I’m asking, though, goes to seeking to understand the limits of your call for Israel to not go down a certain path, against actions that may be targeted or otherwise taken to secure the rescue of hostages.

Senator Wong: I think I’ve made that clear.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: But it’s a rather sweeping statement—’do not go down this path’—that you have made.

Senator Wong: I’ll repeat what I’ve said because I think it is clear. You know that the person in this job has to be careful about the words that they use, and I intend to be careful. I restate the Australian government’s grave concerns about an impending major Israeli ground offensive in Rafah. This would bring further devastation to more than a million civilians seeking shelter in Rafah, many there at Israel’s direction. For there to be large-scale military operations in densely populated areas risks extensive civilian casualties. Australia believes that this would be unjustifiable. Our message to Israel is: listen to the world. Do not go down this path.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Minister, I appreciate you repeating those words, because I still don’t have a copy of your statement, but—

Senator Wong: My office can provide copies. There’s a typo, so perhaps the typo could be fixed before the committee gets the statement.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: You make reference to ‘large-scale military operations’. The question that I was asking before, in relation to the rescue of hostages, was seeking, as I said, to understand the extent of the call that you are making, the limits on that call and what judgement Australia will be applying. Are there instances where you see targeted military operations for the rescue of hostages, for example, as being acceptable—obviously, dependent upon how they are undertaken and cognisant of the expectations of international humanitarian law and the like?

Mr Maclachlan: In this four-month long conflict, we’ve seen hostages released in three types of circumstances. A small group of elderly people was released initially, unilaterally, you might recall. The bulk of the hostages were released through the temporary ceasefire that was secured in late November, and there was the successful operation conducted by the Israeli defence forces last week. The government, as the minister pointed out, has been consistent in advocating for the release of hostages. The government has also been consistent, along with all of our like-mindeds, in seeking humanitarian pauses, with the express purpose of both securing releases of hostages and enabling the delivery of humanitarian assistance.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Again, that doesn’t really go to the question that I asked, so let me attempt to rephrase it. I am seeking to test the boundaries of what you are saying should not occur, Minister. Would targeted military operations by Israel to further rescue any hostages being held within Rafah be acceptable, subject to their being undertaken consistent with international humanitarian law?

Senator Wong: Our position from the start has been to argue for the observance of international humanitarian law. I would repeat what President Biden said: it should not proceed without a credible and executable plan for ensuring the safety of and support for the more than a million people sheltering there. As yet, I do not believe that the international community has seen such a plan.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Can I ask again: are you going to address the very specific type of example that I just gave?

Senator Wong: You’re asking to draw me into a set of circumstances which are not before me. I am reiterating what I said in the statement and I am reiterating President Biden’s words.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: It’s a very real possibility and set of circumstances because they are the circumstances that have unfolded just in the last few days: an IDF operation that rescued hostages held by Hamas in this very region. You are making a sweeping statement in calling for Israel not to go down a certain path. I’m seeking to understand, in terms of the judgement that Australia, under your government, will apply to how Israel conducts itself, whether that judgement applies to those types of operations.

Senator Wong: From the very first statement in relation to this conflict, our principles have been clear and we would apply those principles in relation to any particular scenario that might evolve, as we are now, which has led us to make the statement that I have made today.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: I won’t keep us going around in circles, repeating what I think is a reasonable question that I’ve asked but to which you’re not giving a direct answer. Related to that question, what does it say about Hamas and the way in which they are conducting themselves in this conflict that these hostages were rescued from Rafah, the very region that has been seen as a place of refuge but is clearly being used as a place for Hamas to seek to hide their hostages, once again using innocent Palestinians as human shields?

Senator Wong: As a parliament, I think we have been at one—other than the Greens—in our condemnation of Hamas. I think we know the way in which they operate. But you and I both know that, under international humanitarian law, even in war there are limits and even in war there are rules. The fact that a war or conflict is justified under international law does not mean that there are no rules that need to be observed in relation to how that conflict is conducted. The Australian government’s position has been, from the outset, to seek to advocate for the observance of those rules, and that is consistent with my position today.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Is Hamas continuing to breach international humanitarian law, as it did on 7 October, with its continued holding of hostages and, indeed, holding of those hostages in areas where innocent civilians are seeking refuge, and using those innocent civilians as human shields?

Senator Wong: Hamas are a terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel; they neither observe nor recognise any international law. As I said on Insiders, we are democracies; we aspire to and expect a higher standard.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Minister, in your opening statement you say that you wish to see the release of hostages, the upholding of international law and the protection of civilians. This statement doesn’t mention Hamas. The joint statement that you released as a government some months ago with Canada and New Zealand stated:

… Hamas must release all hostages, stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and lay down its arms.

The statement said:

… there is no role for Hamas in the future governance of Gaza and that the territory must no longer be used as a platform for terrorism.

Is it still your belief that there is no role for Hamas in the future governance of Gaza?

Senator Wong: Yes.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: Is that a belief that you shared through your meetings in the Middle East on your recent visit?

Senator Wong: That is a longstanding Australian government position.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: I ask the question as, looking at your opening statement, you haven’t gone to those longer-term fundamentals.

Senator Wong: No.

Senator BIRMINGHAM: What is your assessment, following your time in the Middle East and the engagement of the department on a more continuous basis, as well as other discussions you would be having, about how it is that we can help to ensure that there is no role for Hamas in the future governance of Gaza?

Mr Maclachlan: As the minister indicated, we’ve been clear throughout this that we see no place for Hamas in the future governance of Gaza or, indeed, the occupied Palestinian territories. This is a view that’s shared by like-mindeds. We are not yet in that position. Hamas is still present in Gaza. There is work, of course; there’s the ongoing campaign that the Israelis are conducting. But there is, I think, a view coalescing among regional states about what comes after the current campaign and how the Palestinian authority prepares itself to govern in its territories at a time when there is space for a political solution to be found—a political solution, frankly, which will be needed because, unfortunately, it won’t be found through conduct of security operations alone.

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